Praise

Harold Eberle & Martin Trench: Exploring Biblical Prophecy | Praise

March 24, 2025 | S25:E325

Tonight on Praise, Matt and Laurie Crouch welcome Harold Eberle and Martin Trench for an in-depth discussion on eschatology. Join them as they explore the biblical perspectives on the future, offering insights that will deepen your understanding of prophecy, hope, and God’s promises.

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Praise | Harold Eberle & Martin Trench: Exploring Biblical Prophecy | Praise | March 24, 2025

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- tonight on "praise,"
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Matt and laurie, sit down with special guests,
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Dr. harold eberle, and dr. martin trench,
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To discuss a fresh and inspiring perspective
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On the "study of the end times."
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- i've never heard the word "victorious,"
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And the word, "study of the end,"
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Or "eschatology" in the same sentence.
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- we shouldn't be looking for doom and gloom in the future.
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There will always be doom and gloom,
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But we should be looking for a kingdom that will never end,
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That will grow until it fills the whole earth.
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- [narrator] explore a biblically based
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Optimistic view of the future,
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- the big event's still in the future.
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Jesus is coming back to fully establish
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His kingdom on earth.
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But it's growing until then.
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We need to be busy cooperating with him right now
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To bring his will to earth.
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What you're looking for is a building,
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Continuing to build kingdom until a return of christ.
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- it's not that we're deleting this catching away,
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Or rapture if people want to call it that,
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I think we're putting it back in its proper place,
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Which is the return of christ.
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- [narrator] along with a historical perspective,
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They present a clear understanding of matthew:24,
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The book of revelation,
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And other key passages about the events
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To precede the return of jesus christ.
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(triumphant music)
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Learn how the kingdom of god is still expanding today,
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And why we have a lot to be hopeful for.
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- we need to be walking with the lord,
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And be full of the spirit.
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We need to be discovering,
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And putting into full use our god-given talents,
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And we need to be reaching out
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To the least of these who are hurting.
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That's the job of the body of christ,
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The tribulation behind us,
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The return of christ ahead of us.
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Kingdom work now in the present.
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(mystical music)
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- "praise" program comes to you today
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With two new friends, dr. harold eberle, dr. martin trench.
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And i am confused by something
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That i want you guys to help me with.
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I'm holding your book,
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And i love this beautiful big word here.
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It says "victorious." - yes.
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- and then i look below it,
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And there's the word called "eschatology."
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I know that word means kind of the "study of the end,"
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But i've never heard the word, "victorious,"
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And the word, "study of the end,"
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Or "eschatology" in the same sentence.
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So, let's spend a few minutes,
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And help me understand.
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Dr. eberle, you're sitting closest to me,
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So i'll start with you.
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Tell me, how you can think about the end times,
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After, you know, reading "late great planet earth,"
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Or any of that kind of stuff,
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And have the word "victorious"
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And "eschatology" in the same sense.
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Help me with that because i,
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Laurie and i are gonna have a whole bunch
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Of questions in regard to that.
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And we're gonna wear you out for about an hour.
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What's your opening kind of preamble to that?
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- so that's perfect place to start.
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- [matt] okay. - but i don't like anyone to
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Be scared of the word, "eschatology."
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- [matt] okay. - like you've already used it
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Just to mean our understanding of "the end times."
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- our understanding of "the end times."
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Okay. - and we were trained as
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Most of the christians probably listening,
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That the future between now and the return of jesus,
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There's gonna be a lot of difficulty, wars,
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All kinds of tribulation and difficult things ahead.
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That's what we were discipled in.
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But for about the last 30 plus years,
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We've had a transformation of our thoughts.
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- [matt] okay. - we've dedicated
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Ourselves to study,
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And have come to believe
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That actually there's good news,
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That there is a victorious ending to this.
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That leading up to the return of jesus christ,
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We should be expecting greater and greater revival,
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The gospel being preached out to whole world,
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We should expect the greatest generations
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To be the generations after us,
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- mm-hmm. - and therefore,
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We should see the church rise
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In maturity and glory.
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So we're looking for a victorious view.
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And that's what we've come to believe the bible teaches.
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- dr. trench, your opening thoughts.
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- so, paul said that jesus is returning
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For a glorious church.
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And yet we often think that jesus is returning
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For a bedraggled church, a defeated church.
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And that word, "victorious,"
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We've got no problem putting it in front of anything else.
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Victorious christian living,
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Victory in prayer, victorious faith.
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Faith is the victory that overcomes the world.
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We would put it in front of any other
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Aspect of our christian faith.
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And yet so many of us,
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When it comes to thinking about the future,
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And the end, we suddenly become pessimistic.
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We give up the victorious christian life
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For this one topic.
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And yet, if jesus was victorious over sin,
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And death, and satan, then he is victorious over everything.
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- [laurie] amen. - and not just over
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Some aspects of our faith,
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But over everything, jesus is victorious.
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And so we should look at the future
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With the same brightness and optimism
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That we look upon prayer, faith, salvation, revival.
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We wouldn't think anything about
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Saying that those were victorious experiences
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That we have in our walk with god.
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And so i think as we go into the future,
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We are walking with the victorious god.
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- [laurie] yeah. - so the future must be
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Bright and victorious.
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- you know, i was raised,
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My dad was a pastor all my life, my parents.
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And, he was brought up in the church of god,
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And then he married my mom,
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And they kind of went assemblies.
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And then he went interdenominational
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When i was about eight or nine, 10 years old.
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So he was raised in dispensation.
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You know, they were gonna run down
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The aisle when they got married.
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You know, just to, just to get married, you know.
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'cause the end was,
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Jesus was coming back tonight at five, you know?
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- [dr. eberle] yes.
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- and then i married into the crouch family,
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And my father-in-law was all...
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- about (laughs) how lindsay was his best friend
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And in times, and why would you buy a house now?
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And i mean, we heard it was-
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- imminent. - imminent.
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- yeah, imminent. everything's imminent.
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- and it was all about getting people saved.
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And i get that and i love that.
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But the mindset of everyone's getting their beans
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And getting in a cave or in a cellar-
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- hiding. - and hiding away.
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And so, my dad did not believe that.
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- is our planet truly in mortal peril?
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Hal lindsey, author of an incredible
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Bestselling book called, "the late great planet earth,"
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Featuring orson wells is now a film
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That may change your life forever.
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As the forces of east and west move into the middle east,
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The stage will be set for the final battle of history,
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The fulfillment of the prophecy of armageddon.
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- it's later than most people think.
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(bomb explodes)
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- so there's been this kind
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Of a little bit of both in people.
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- it's a big pot of stew
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That didn't taste very good to our age group.
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- and when you start reading stuff like this,
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It breaks off that yuck
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And bondage of things being bad and horrible,
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And how much dried food do i need to get, you know?
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And this fear, it's a fear that has come upon the church,
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I believe, that has just kind of frozen everybody
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And a fear that the worst is coming,
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But yet, we're promised victory,
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So we wanna just get on the right track. (laughs)
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You gotta have victory.
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- you gotta reconcile some things.
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- yeah. - you know?
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- yeah. - because it's so freeing.
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- for our age group,
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There wasn't any alternative belief system
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That anyone ever said anything about, okay?
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- yes.
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- i didn't know very much of my childhood
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Where there wasn't a very close friend
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Of my dad named hal lindsey.
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And hal's gone now. hal passed away at the end of '24.
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And a lot of the timing system
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Of the end times that i think historically got tagged
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To 1948, and this and that,
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A lot of those timing systems are breaking down.
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Independent churches aren't talking about
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The book of revelation or end times really at all.
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And we've got an audience that is just looking
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For something to understand.
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And i think what i loved about your book,
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"victorious eschatology,"
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And there was a college that uses your book,
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And i ended up getting this book
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And got in touch with you,
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And the idea that we're reconciling
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This horrible view of the future
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With a victorious view of the future,
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It feels like a train wreck.
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Okay, help start sorting that out
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Because you guys, i think, that right there refers to doctor
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And doctor, so you guys better help us explain this
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Because it feels like there's a lot of questions out there.
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Again, the way we started the word,
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Victorious and eschatology, in my view,
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Has never been seen in the same sentence before,
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Much less the headline of a book.
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- yes. - okay.
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With all that said, please start kind of, i think we decided
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That we wanted to at least look at church history.
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- yes.
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- and explain that we're not talking about some kind
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Of new viewpoint that you guys are trying to bring up.
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We're trying to re-dig the old wells.
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- yeah.
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- and rediscover what historians
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Throughout the entire church age
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Have talked about.
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So both martin and i were trained in the same thing
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You refer to, the dispensational way of thinking.
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We didn't know it was a pessimistic view
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Because we were told jesus is gonna win the end.
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But it's the concept that with dispensationalism,
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You think satan's god of this world,
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Everything's gonna go downhill,
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And there's gonna be a great tribulation,
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But christians will be taken off the earth.
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So it's been a long process.
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It took me about 10 years of study,
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And it was martin who actually got me started down
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This path 35 years ago.
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- [matt] my goodness.
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- he introduced me to the concept,
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But i took it up to read mostly the writings
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Of the fathers throughout church history.
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- okay. you just said, "he introduced me to the concept."
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- [harold] yes.
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- [matt] martin, what's the concept?
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- so the concept really is that if we take all
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Of jesus' parables of the kingdom,
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The kingdom of god is an ever-expanding kingdom.
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It's a growing kingdom.
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It's like yeast that's put into a batch of dough,
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And it spreads through the whole dough.
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Or one of our favorite christmas verses
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From isaiah of, "to us a son is born and a child is given
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Of the increase of his government, there
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Will be no end."
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So everything about the kingdom of god says
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That it starts small,
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But it continues to grow until it has influenced
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And affected and filled the whole world.
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So why should that suddenly stop?
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Why should the kingdom suddenly stop growing?
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It won't, it will continue.
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And paul tells us that, "it will continue,
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That jesus will continue to reign from the right hand
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Of the father until all of his enemies
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Have been made of footstool for his feet."
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Then comes the end when he returns
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And hands the kingdom back to the father.
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So that means we should be looking
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For even more kingdom growth
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In the future than we've seen in the past.
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- [matt] okay.
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- we should be looking for more revival, more salvation,
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And a transformation on a global scale.
00:12:34.243 --> 00:12:37.146
- i wrote down in a different book that i was reading
00:12:37.146 --> 00:12:41.350
A couple of names from history, paula carp, anastasius,
00:12:41.350 --> 00:12:46.422
Augustine, anselm, thomas aquinas, martin luther,
00:12:47.389 --> 00:12:51.527
John calvin, john owen, jonathan edwards,
00:12:51.527 --> 00:12:55.698
Spurgeon, john wesley.
00:12:55.698 --> 00:12:57.733
These are some so old that we maybe aren't recognizing some
00:12:58.934 --> 00:13:03.172
Of these names, but these are church fathers
00:13:03.172 --> 00:13:06.809
That have written much
00:13:06.809 --> 00:13:08.711
And none of them largely agreed
00:13:08.711 --> 00:13:15.517
With, let's call it just dispensationalism
00:13:16.418 --> 00:13:19.922
As it's known today.
00:13:19.922 --> 00:13:22.024
How would you answer this?
00:13:22.024 --> 00:13:23.392
Is it because they didn't see 1948
00:13:23.392 --> 00:13:26.328
And israel become a nation?
00:13:26.328 --> 00:13:28.597
Is it because they didn't have the ability
00:13:28.597 --> 00:13:31.567
To write concerning that?
00:13:31.567 --> 00:13:33.669
How are we taking historians from the church age
00:13:33.669 --> 00:13:39.008
And wouldn't somebody be able to dismiss what you're saying?
00:13:40.209 --> 00:13:43.779
Because wasn't 1948 the big inciting incident, as we say?
00:13:43.779 --> 00:13:50.519
How do you answer that?
00:13:51.053 --> 00:13:52.721
- so we certainly have to agree with you,
00:13:52.721 --> 00:13:54.990
Not only those leaders that you've named,
00:13:54.990 --> 00:13:57.793
But many other church leaders.
00:13:57.793 --> 00:13:59.728
- [matt] okay.
00:13:59.728 --> 00:14:01.263
- the majority of the church fathers throughout 1,800 years,
00:14:01.263 --> 00:14:05.334
The first 1,800 years of church history,
00:14:05.334 --> 00:14:08.604
Believed that the kingdom of god started
00:14:08.604 --> 00:14:11.206
When jesus sat on his throne.
00:14:11.206 --> 00:14:13.309
And it's been growing ever since.
00:14:13.309 --> 00:14:16.211
- and clearly it has. it went from 12 to 2 billion,
00:14:16.211 --> 00:14:19.248
So. - that's clear.
00:14:19.248 --> 00:14:20.416
That's a good result right there.
00:14:20.416 --> 00:14:22.151
And it's continuing today to grow.
00:14:22.151 --> 00:14:24.353
They believed it, they wrote,
00:14:24.353 --> 00:14:26.989
And those are the very things that i got exposed...
00:14:26.989 --> 00:14:30.292
- but even though it took me 10 years
00:14:31.126 --> 00:14:32.294
To make the transition in my thoughts,
00:14:32.294 --> 00:14:34.463
Because i had been taught
00:14:34.463 --> 00:14:35.898
That the kingdom doesn't come until jesus will return.
00:14:35.898 --> 00:14:41.003
And that the idea is we're bringing
00:14:41.737 --> 00:14:42.972
An understanding of the kingdom closer
00:14:42.972 --> 00:14:45.307
To when jesus sat on his throne,
00:14:45.307 --> 00:14:47.977
And it's growing like seeds.
00:14:47.977 --> 00:14:49.912
And martin was referring to all those parables.
00:14:49.912 --> 00:14:53.015
Most of parables jesus started say
00:14:53.015 --> 00:14:55.818
The kingdom of god is like this.
00:14:55.818 --> 00:14:57.853
Some type of growth happening.
00:14:57.853 --> 00:15:00.589
And he refers to isaiah 9,
00:15:00.589 --> 00:15:02.758
No end to the increase of his government.
00:15:02.758 --> 00:15:05.194
I mean, it's pretty clear in scripture
00:15:05.194 --> 00:15:07.096
That there is a kingdom that started
00:15:07.096 --> 00:15:09.798
When jesus sat on his throne,
00:15:09.798 --> 00:15:11.700
And it's growing and growing and growing.
00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:14.003
And we do believe jesus will come back,
00:15:14.003 --> 00:15:16.472
Establish his kingdom.
00:15:16.472 --> 00:15:18.140
But what was shocking was to find out that most
00:15:18.140 --> 00:15:20.943
Of our church fathers for the first 1800 years
00:15:20.943 --> 00:15:25.681
Believed that the kingdom started
00:15:25.681 --> 00:15:28.050
When jesus sat on the throne and it's growing.
00:15:28.050 --> 00:15:31.353
That was a shocking thing that i had never been taught,
00:15:31.353 --> 00:15:35.090
But that was the foundation
00:15:35.090 --> 00:15:37.159
That started putting my understanding on
00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:38.961
A different path.
00:15:38.961 --> 00:15:40.329
- [matt] okay.
00:15:40.696 --> 00:15:42.097
- so the whole idea of this more pessimistic view
00:15:42.097 --> 00:15:46.668
Of the end times with the antichrist taking over the world
00:15:46.668 --> 00:15:50.339
And christians being persecuted and so on.
00:15:50.339 --> 00:15:55.010
This is a new doctrine.
00:15:55.010 --> 00:15:57.246
So like you said at the beginning,
00:15:57.246 --> 00:15:58.881
It's not that we've come up with a new idea.
00:15:58.881 --> 00:16:01.250
What we are sharing in our book is
00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:04.119
The historic teaching of the christian church.
00:16:04.119 --> 00:16:08.123
It's only in the last 200 years that this other view,
00:16:08.123 --> 00:16:11.360
This dispensational view,
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:13.429
This left behind view came to the fore.
00:16:13.429 --> 00:16:17.933
None of those church fathers you mentioned would ever
00:16:17.933 --> 00:16:21.136
Even have heard of anything remotely like that.
00:16:21.136 --> 00:16:25.140
And i suppose the reason it's become so popular is
00:16:25.140 --> 00:16:29.611
Because other doctrines
00:16:29.611 --> 00:16:31.914
Have come to the fore in church history,
00:16:31.914 --> 00:16:34.183
And then have fallen away.
00:16:34.183 --> 00:16:36.285
But this one happened at a time
00:16:36.285 --> 00:16:37.953
When we've got the printing press,
00:16:37.953 --> 00:16:39.555
We've got the internet, we've got television.
00:16:39.555 --> 00:16:42.257
It can be propagated a lot more.
00:16:42.257 --> 00:16:45.260
And it has become in north america
00:16:45.260 --> 00:16:48.564
And in a lot of the english speaking world,
00:16:48.564 --> 00:16:50.432
The major view in the church.
00:16:50.432 --> 00:16:53.869
But it was never the major view in the church
00:16:53.869 --> 00:16:56.672
Up until recent times.
00:16:56.672 --> 00:16:58.006
- then where did it come from?
00:16:58.006 --> 00:16:59.875
- so it comes from my home country, actually.
00:17:00.843 --> 00:17:04.480
- oh boy.
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:05.881
- so, basically, a couple of hundred years ago,
00:17:05.881 --> 00:17:10.319
A girl in scotland who was a christian
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:12.221
Had a vision that was published,
00:17:12.221 --> 00:17:16.391
And some christian leaders
00:17:16.391 --> 00:17:18.827
Sent representatives to go and investigate it.
00:17:18.827 --> 00:17:21.997
And one of them was a man named john nelson darby.
00:17:21.997 --> 00:17:26.568
And he liked her vision,
00:17:26.568 --> 00:17:28.637
And he began to look for scriptures to back it up.
00:17:28.637 --> 00:17:33.208
And he added more ideas than her original vision had,
00:17:33.208 --> 00:17:37.412
And eventually came up with this idea
00:17:37.412 --> 00:17:39.748
That the second coming of jesus
00:17:39.748 --> 00:17:41.950
Would be split into two events,
00:17:41.950 --> 00:17:44.686
A catching away and then a returning,
00:17:45.521 --> 00:17:48.590
And that there would be a tribulation in between,
00:17:48.590 --> 00:17:51.160
And that the world would gradually
00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:52.861
Get worse and worse until this thing happened.
00:17:52.861 --> 00:17:56.698
And so this was the new idea that he came up with.
00:17:56.698 --> 00:18:00.435
- and when?
00:18:00.435 --> 00:18:02.137
- 1860s, yeah. - yeah.
00:18:02.137 --> 00:18:04.439
- and his views were not embraced
00:18:04.439 --> 00:18:07.075
By any other christian leaders at the time.
00:18:07.075 --> 00:18:10.012
In fact, they were opposed
00:18:10.012 --> 00:18:12.047
And preached against by other famous christian leaders
00:18:12.047 --> 00:18:15.751
That we would be able to name.
00:18:15.751 --> 00:18:17.386
- like who?
00:18:17.386 --> 00:18:18.687
- so, for instance, when an end times emphasis
00:18:18.687 --> 00:18:22.424
Began to come around, people like charles spurgeon.
00:18:22.424 --> 00:18:26.595
- oh wow.
00:18:26.595 --> 00:18:27.729
- was very vocal against it.
00:18:28.330 --> 00:18:30.465
- so what would've john wesley been?
00:18:30.465 --> 00:18:32.768
Would he have opposed it or do you have any idea or?
00:18:32.768 --> 00:18:35.938
- well, we quote john wesley quite a few times in our book.
00:18:35.938 --> 00:18:39.007
- [matt] yeah.
00:18:39.007 --> 00:18:40.542
- it would've been a brand new concept to him.
00:18:40.542 --> 00:18:42.911
And it would've been contrary
00:18:42.911 --> 00:18:45.948
To everything he had ever believed or studied.
00:18:45.948 --> 00:18:49.151
- so john wesley was very clear
00:18:49.151 --> 00:18:51.553
That he believed the church would rise in victory and glory
00:18:51.553 --> 00:18:55.891
Before the return of jesus christ.
00:18:55.891 --> 00:18:58.060
He often talked about that in his writings.
00:18:58.060 --> 00:19:00.862
So john wesley being especially early 1800s transitioned,
00:19:00.862 --> 00:19:05.534
Didn't start until, as martin was talking about,
00:19:05.534 --> 00:19:08.670
A small group started in scotland,
00:19:08.670 --> 00:19:12.507
Then went to british isles, and it gradually began,
00:19:12.507 --> 00:19:17.112
But it was not well accepted
00:19:17.112 --> 00:19:19.181
Until the scofield bible was published.
00:19:19.181 --> 00:19:22.184
- [matt] okay.
00:19:22.184 --> 00:19:23.318
- 1909, scofield bible was published,
00:19:23.318 --> 00:19:25.220
And they had marginal notes that explained the bible,
00:19:25.220 --> 00:19:29.124
Helped the reader read those notes on the side
00:19:29.124 --> 00:19:32.294
And caused the reader to start breaking history
00:19:32.294 --> 00:19:35.163
And the future into time periods.
00:19:35.163 --> 00:19:38.300
And it just so happened
00:19:38.300 --> 00:19:40.369
That those time periods sorted out, as martin was saying,
00:19:40.369 --> 00:19:43.739
There's a church age,
00:19:43.739 --> 00:19:45.140
Then there's this seven year period of tribulation.
00:19:45.140 --> 00:19:48.277
But preceding that,
00:19:48.277 --> 00:19:50.178
It was not known in the body of christ for 1,800 years.
00:19:50.178 --> 00:19:55.517
But 1909 is when it started having somebody wrote it down
00:19:56.685 --> 00:19:59.988
Clear enough where now it could be distributed.
00:19:59.988 --> 00:20:03.325
But even the scofield bible did not get well accepted
00:20:03.325 --> 00:20:05.961
Until the 19, late '50s,
00:20:05.961 --> 00:20:08.797
Because there was a something in society changing.
00:20:08.797 --> 00:20:12.000
World war i, world war ii.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.504
In world war i,
00:20:15.504 --> 00:20:16.938
Europe started becoming pessimistic about the future.
00:20:16.938 --> 00:20:20.242
- [matt] mm.
00:20:20.242 --> 00:20:21.076
- after world war ii,
00:20:21.076 --> 00:20:22.477
The united states became pessimistic.
00:20:22.477 --> 00:20:25.113
And a pessimism settled in on society,
00:20:25.113 --> 00:20:29.084
The western world, thinking people are really bad.
00:20:29.084 --> 00:20:33.755
This world is a mess.
00:20:33.755 --> 00:20:35.624
That was the environment
00:20:35.624 --> 00:20:37.125
In which they wanted a different theology
00:20:37.125 --> 00:20:40.662
That matched what they're seeing
00:20:40.662 --> 00:20:43.198
When the world is killing each other
00:20:43.198 --> 00:20:44.933
And millions of people dying.
00:20:44.933 --> 00:20:47.069
That was when the scofield bible came along
00:20:47.069 --> 00:20:50.472
And offered people an explanation,
00:20:50.472 --> 00:20:53.008
Why is things getting so bad?
00:20:53.008 --> 00:20:55.444
But it's very recent,
00:20:55.444 --> 00:20:57.813
Talking 2000 years of history in perspective,
00:20:57.813 --> 00:21:01.450
Just since world war i and world war ii,
00:21:01.450 --> 00:21:04.319
That this dispensational view
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:06.788
That everything's going downhill came.
00:21:06.788 --> 00:21:09.324
But since the year 2000,
00:21:09.324 --> 00:21:12.027
A lot of christians around the world
00:21:12.027 --> 00:21:13.362
Are lifting their eyes up
00:21:13.362 --> 00:21:15.163
And reconsidering this whole thing.
00:21:15.163 --> 00:21:17.366
- okay, let me jump in and just say one thing.
00:21:17.366 --> 00:21:21.403
If i go back to the 1980s,
00:21:21.403 --> 00:21:24.406
And my dad is sitting in the chair i'm sitting in,
00:21:24.406 --> 00:21:28.143
My mom's sitting in the chair that laurie's sitting in.
00:21:28.143 --> 00:21:31.346
Your hair's the wrong color, by the way.
00:21:31.346 --> 00:21:33.148
It needs to be pink. - i'll get on that right away.
00:21:33.148 --> 00:21:37.519
- basically, my dad is discussing
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.356
Eschatology a lot, okay?
00:21:41.356 --> 00:21:43.892
We're talking about with dr. harold eberle
00:21:44.793 --> 00:21:48.196
And dr. martin trench,
00:21:48.196 --> 00:21:49.431
"victorious eschatology," their book.
00:21:49.431 --> 00:21:52.734
But my dad did this with hal lindsey
00:21:52.734 --> 00:21:55.404
And dr. steuart mcbirnie and others
00:21:55.404 --> 00:21:57.806
- who hasn't heard of "the late great planet earth"
00:21:57.806 --> 00:22:00.442
And all of the many, many, many books from the prolific pen?
00:22:00.442 --> 00:22:04.780
- they weren't talking about what you're talking about.
00:22:04.780 --> 00:22:07.816
They're talking about whether or not the rapture
00:22:07.816 --> 00:22:11.286
Was pre, mid, or post tribulation.
00:22:11.286 --> 00:22:16.625
We're talking about something completely different here.
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:18.693
- totally. - totally.
00:22:18.693 --> 00:22:19.961
- and we're talking about a eschatology
00:22:19.961 --> 00:22:23.698
That was formed in the mid 1800s in scotland and it.
00:22:23.698 --> 00:22:30.806
- found its way in the margin of the scofield bible
00:22:31.840 --> 00:22:34.676
As notes that somehow got canonized.
00:22:34.676 --> 00:22:37.512
- yes. - okay.
00:22:37.512 --> 00:22:38.780
Is that what we're really...
00:22:38.780 --> 00:22:40.382
So for the viewers,
00:22:40.382 --> 00:22:42.184
In case somebody just kind of tuned in
00:22:42.184 --> 00:22:45.754
And is going, okay, what the heck you guys talking about?
00:22:45.754 --> 00:22:49.257
You know, because there's a lot of people
00:22:49.257 --> 00:22:51.726
That are, you know, catching up.
00:22:51.726 --> 00:22:54.496
Let's be clear, we're talking about victorious eschatology,
00:22:54.496 --> 00:22:59.401
Which quite frankly has never been said
00:22:59.401 --> 00:23:01.603
In the same sentence in my lifetime until now.
00:23:01.603 --> 00:23:05.106
And we're talking about a view to the future
00:23:05.106 --> 00:23:09.911
That does not come with the kind of devastation,
00:23:09.911 --> 00:23:13.915
Ruin, and take over by an antichrist
00:23:13.915 --> 00:23:18.053
And us all not denying christ
00:23:18.053 --> 00:23:20.989
And laying our heads over on a chopping block
00:23:20.989 --> 00:23:23.258
And giving our lives in martyrdom.
00:23:23.258 --> 00:23:25.227
That's not what you're talking about, right?
00:23:25.227 --> 00:23:27.963
- that's not what we're talking about
00:23:27.963 --> 00:23:29.464
Because the whole argument of pre, mid,
00:23:29.464 --> 00:23:32.734
And post trib becomes meaningless
00:23:32.734 --> 00:23:37.105
When you read what jesus said about the tribulation.
00:23:37.105 --> 00:23:40.141
In matthew 24, he didn't say it would be worldwide.
00:23:41.176 --> 00:23:43.778
He said it would happen in judea.
00:23:43.778 --> 00:23:45.814
"let those in judea take heed."
00:23:46.448 --> 00:23:50.085
He said that jerusalem would be surrounded by armies.
00:23:51.152 --> 00:23:54.756
He said that those armies would carry an eagle banner
00:23:54.756 --> 00:23:57.125
That the eagles would gather around the corpse of the city.
00:23:57.125 --> 00:24:00.695
And he said this generation will not pass away
00:24:01.663 --> 00:24:05.400
Until these things take place.
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.036
So once you realize that the tribulation
00:24:08.904 --> 00:24:11.439
That jesus spoke about is in our past,
00:24:11.439 --> 00:24:16.177
That it happened within a generation,
00:24:16.177 --> 00:24:19.447
And all you have to do is read jesus' prophecy
00:24:19.447 --> 00:24:22.117
And read a historian like josephus,
00:24:22.117 --> 00:24:25.086
And you'll find out that everything jesus said
00:24:25.086 --> 00:24:27.422
Would happen during this tribulation happened
00:24:27.422 --> 00:24:31.126
In jerusalem in the first century from 66 to 70 a.d.
00:24:32.193 --> 00:24:36.831
Over a three and a half year period
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:39.868
Like the book of revelation says.
00:24:39.868 --> 00:24:41.870
Three times it says it, three and a half years.
00:24:41.870 --> 00:24:45.106
Over this three and a half year period,
00:24:45.106 --> 00:24:46.841
The siege of jerusalem
00:24:46.841 --> 00:24:48.410
And this tribulation took place
00:24:48.410 --> 00:24:50.478
Exactly like jesus described.
00:24:50.478 --> 00:24:53.081
So now that your eyes are opened to the fact
00:24:53.081 --> 00:24:58.420
That the tribulation that jesus spoke of is in our past,
00:24:59.554 --> 00:25:01.890
Now we all might go through seasons of tribulation,
00:25:01.890 --> 00:25:04.526
But this tribulation is in our past.
00:25:04.526 --> 00:25:08.229
There's now no discussion about
00:25:08.229 --> 00:25:10.966
When the rapture is in this tribulation.
00:25:10.966 --> 00:25:13.868
The tribulation is over,
00:25:13.868 --> 00:25:16.071
And it completely takes away the whole conversation
00:25:16.071 --> 00:25:18.740
To something new.
00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:20.075
If the tribulation is past,
00:25:20.075 --> 00:25:22.277
But the kingdom is present,
00:25:22.277 --> 00:25:25.380
Shouldn't we be focusing on the kingdom of god
00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:29.451
Rather than a coming tribulation in the future?
00:25:29.451 --> 00:25:32.954
- let me just say, this book,
00:25:33.588 --> 00:25:35.323
For all the questions, for all the things
00:25:35.323 --> 00:25:38.727
That we've thought, for all the things we've believed,
00:25:38.727 --> 00:25:41.863
You guys like hit every one of 'em,
00:25:41.863 --> 00:25:43.932
All those points that are is in your heart,
00:25:43.932 --> 00:25:47.936
Is in your head that you just think,
00:25:47.936 --> 00:25:49.437
But i thought, but i thought,
00:25:49.437 --> 00:25:51.773
You guys bring all of that out.
00:25:51.773 --> 00:25:53.808
Now you probably have heard and known that this,
00:25:53.808 --> 00:25:57.312
But let us really tell you what happened,
00:25:57.312 --> 00:26:00.281
And the freedom of that and the knowing
00:26:00.281 --> 00:26:04.919
That i can walk victoriously in my life today.
00:26:04.919 --> 00:26:08.590
My children are good. - grandparents, grandbabies.
00:26:08.590 --> 00:26:11.660
- they have a future, you know?
00:26:11.660 --> 00:26:14.162
And just the good news of the gospel
00:26:14.162 --> 00:26:16.865
That the kingdom of god is now,
00:26:16.865 --> 00:26:19.668
The kingdom of god is at hand.
00:26:19.668 --> 00:26:21.302
That's what jesus always- - it's within us.
00:26:21.302 --> 00:26:22.871
- it's within us.
00:26:22.871 --> 00:26:24.272
What do we do with that?
00:26:24.272 --> 00:26:25.940
If it's within us, does it just-
00:26:25.940 --> 00:26:27.275
- that's why i called it a train wreck earlier.
00:26:27.275 --> 00:26:28.977
You know, i mean, my-
00:26:28.977 --> 00:26:30.412
- but you guys hit all that, all of those questions,
00:26:30.412 --> 00:26:33.515
And i love you for that.
00:26:33.515 --> 00:26:34.883
- well, thank you. - i thank you for writing
00:26:34.883 --> 00:26:36.718
Such an understandable book like this
00:26:36.718 --> 00:26:41.389
Just if you have questions.
00:26:41.389 --> 00:26:43.091
- there's two things that i wish
00:26:43.091 --> 00:26:44.993
We could communicate clearly with people.
00:26:44.993 --> 00:26:47.362
First, we've already said it.
00:26:47.362 --> 00:26:49.464
There's a kingdom that started 2,000 years ago,
00:26:49.464 --> 00:26:52.000
And it's gradually growing.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:54.202
I wish people could grasp that.
00:26:54.202 --> 00:26:57.238
But then the other is what dr. martin was saying
00:26:57.238 --> 00:26:59.874
About what happened in 70 a.d.
00:26:59.874 --> 00:27:03.411
So from historical, i'll try to give a little bit more
00:27:03.411 --> 00:27:06.815
Of what he was sharing in matthew 24.
00:27:06.815 --> 00:27:11.052
- set the stage a little bit, doctor.
00:27:11.052 --> 00:27:12.787
- yes. - this is the night
00:27:12.787 --> 00:27:14.856
Of the last supper.
00:27:14.856 --> 00:27:16.624
- the last week of jesus' death.
00:27:16.624 --> 00:27:18.827
- give us a little.
00:27:18.827 --> 00:27:19.928
Kind of paint the picture for us.
00:27:19.928 --> 00:27:21.629
- so we understand the last week of his death
00:27:21.629 --> 00:27:25.400
On the sunday, he had come in riding on a donkey.
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.370
People cheered and hailed
00:27:29.370 --> 00:27:31.940
Because they were thinking this might be the messiah,
00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:34.609
The one who had set up his kingdom on earth,
00:27:34.609 --> 00:27:36.745
The one that was promised throughout the old testament.
00:27:36.745 --> 00:27:39.614
But then he went in and he rebuked
00:27:39.614 --> 00:27:43.318
The jewish religious leaders in the temple.
00:27:43.318 --> 00:27:45.954
And that's what matthew chapter 23 is.
00:27:45.954 --> 00:27:48.289
The whole chapter talks about a rebuke
00:27:48.289 --> 00:27:51.793
That jesus said destruction is gonna come
00:27:51.793 --> 00:27:55.163
In that generation, and this temple will be destroyed
00:27:55.163 --> 00:27:59.334
And this city will be destroyed.
00:27:59.334 --> 00:28:01.436
And that's matthew 23.
00:28:01.436 --> 00:28:03.772
Well, there's no breaks in the original bible.
00:28:03.772 --> 00:28:06.775
We have to read right into matthew 24.
00:28:06.775 --> 00:28:09.444
And matthew 24 verse one says they're coming
00:28:09.444 --> 00:28:12.313
Out of the temple.
00:28:12.313 --> 00:28:14.315
Then in verse three, the disciples ask jesus,
00:28:14.315 --> 00:28:17.519
"when will these things happen?"
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.221
Well, we have come to understand
00:28:20.221 --> 00:28:22.490
That that first question wasn't about
00:28:22.490 --> 00:28:25.226
When the end of the world will be.
00:28:25.226 --> 00:28:27.128
They were asking when will the jerusalem
00:28:27.128 --> 00:28:30.365
And the temple be destroyed?
00:28:30.365 --> 00:28:32.400
Well, jesus had already said within one generation.
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:36.604
In biblical terminology,
00:28:36.604 --> 00:28:38.072
One generation was considered usually a 40 years.
00:28:38.072 --> 00:28:41.543
So he said that and 30 a.d.
00:28:41.543 --> 00:28:45.079
That was the year that he died.
00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:47.081
That was the last week of his life.
00:28:47.081 --> 00:28:49.050
He said within one generation, the city will be destroyed.
00:28:49.050 --> 00:28:52.487
That temple will be destroyed.
00:28:52.487 --> 00:28:54.756
Now, if we add 40 years to 30 a.d.,
00:28:54.756 --> 00:28:58.193
That brings us to 70 a.d.
00:28:58.193 --> 00:29:00.862
Well, did anything happen in 70 a.d.?
00:29:00.862 --> 00:29:03.865
And that's what dr. martin was talking about.
00:29:03.865 --> 00:29:06.367
Yeah, there did.
00:29:06.367 --> 00:29:07.836
20,000 roman soldiers surround the city of jerusalem,
00:29:07.836 --> 00:29:13.107
Lining the mountains around the city,
00:29:13.908 --> 00:29:14.876
Sealed the city of jerusalem off
00:29:14.876 --> 00:29:17.545
So no one could escape.
00:29:17.545 --> 00:29:19.480
They starved the people.
00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:21.583
Eventually they descended upon the city
00:29:22.450 --> 00:29:25.286
And killed more than a million jews in 70 a.d.
00:29:25.286 --> 00:29:29.424
When dr. martin mentions josephus,
00:29:29.424 --> 00:29:32.393
That's writings of a man named josephus
00:29:32.393 --> 00:29:36.431
Who was hired by the roman government.
00:29:36.431 --> 00:29:38.233
He was among the soldiers surrounding the city,
00:29:38.233 --> 00:29:42.237
And he was hired to write down what was happening.
00:29:42.237 --> 00:29:45.206
Anybody can just google josephus and read the report
00:29:45.206 --> 00:29:49.410
That we're talking about right now, historic event.
00:29:49.410 --> 00:29:52.914
The city was destroyed.
00:29:52.914 --> 00:29:55.617
- so, the event in 70 a.d. is jerusalem is destroyed.
00:29:55.617 --> 00:30:01.856
Jesus prophesied it and said
00:30:02.457 --> 00:30:05.159
It's gonna happen in a generation.
00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:07.362
So that happened in matthew 24, right?
00:30:07.362 --> 00:30:10.064
- yes. - so i guess the significance
00:30:10.064 --> 00:30:13.001
Is it has to be a really significant moment
00:30:13.001 --> 00:30:17.705
Other than just, quote, the temple being destroyed
00:30:17.705 --> 00:30:20.508
Because that was the dwelling place of god on earth.
00:30:20.508 --> 00:30:23.745
- yes. - oh, sure.
00:30:23.745 --> 00:30:25.146
- so god himself was inside that holy of holies.
00:30:25.146 --> 00:30:29.851
- yes.
00:30:30.084 --> 00:30:31.085
- so if he's not there anymore,
00:30:31.719 --> 00:30:34.389
Isn't that how then jesus's words
00:30:35.123 --> 00:30:38.626
About the kingdom of god is within you,
00:30:38.626 --> 00:30:40.762
We are the dwelling place.
00:30:40.762 --> 00:30:42.430
- yeah. - of god on earth.
00:30:42.430 --> 00:30:43.331
- we are the temple, now.
00:30:43.331 --> 00:30:44.365
- okay. - and jesus died
00:30:44.365 --> 00:30:45.667
That the veil was ranked in the holy of holies.
00:30:45.667 --> 00:30:50.071
'cause god was no longer kept in a temple
00:30:50.071 --> 00:30:52.707
After the death of jesus.
00:30:52.707 --> 00:30:54.642
I mean, he obviously, god was all,
00:30:54.642 --> 00:30:56.778
Has always been omnipresent.
00:30:56.778 --> 00:30:58.613
But i mean he was thought of as dwelling in the temple.
00:30:58.613 --> 00:31:02.884
- right. - but the veil was torn.
00:31:02.884 --> 00:31:04.886
So for that 40 years, the old covenant was obsolete.
00:31:04.886 --> 00:31:10.158
- hebrews chapter eight. - yeah.
00:31:10.825 --> 00:31:12.360
- says now it has been made obsolete.
00:31:12.360 --> 00:31:15.430
The jewish religious system.
00:31:15.430 --> 00:31:17.632
- okay. - was obsolete
00:31:17.632 --> 00:31:19.267
The moment jesus died on the cross.
00:31:19.267 --> 00:31:21.569
He put an end to the sacrifices and offerings.
00:31:21.569 --> 00:31:25.340
- indeed, the first convert. - yes.
00:31:25.340 --> 00:31:27.742
- is the thief on the cross.
00:31:27.742 --> 00:31:29.444
- of course. - today you'll be
00:31:29.444 --> 00:31:30.645
With me in prayer. - okay.
00:31:30.645 --> 00:31:31.446
- today. - and that verse
00:31:31.446 --> 00:31:33.381
That harold's quoting from hebrews,
00:31:33.381 --> 00:31:35.583
When jesus died, it says, we now have a new covenant
00:31:35.583 --> 00:31:40.154
By calling it new, he has made the first one obsolete.
00:31:40.154 --> 00:31:44.792
And then he says, it is now obsolete
00:31:44.792 --> 00:31:47.996
And it shall soon pass away.
00:31:47.996 --> 00:31:51.799
And it was only a number of years after hebrews was written
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:56.104
That the temple was destroyed.
00:31:56.104 --> 00:31:58.373
And everything to do with the old covenant passed away.
00:31:58.373 --> 00:32:01.542
No more temple, no more sacrifices,
00:32:01.542 --> 00:32:04.579
No more priesthood, all gone.
00:32:04.579 --> 00:32:07.248
- but now we have a new high priest
00:32:07.248 --> 00:32:09.884
Who replaced the human being
00:32:09.884 --> 00:32:11.986
Who was among the jewish people, jesus christ, high priest.
00:32:11.986 --> 00:32:15.790
And we have a new temple which jesus is making out
00:32:15.790 --> 00:32:19.027
Of living stones.
00:32:19.027 --> 00:32:21.095
Believers, 'cause god wants to dwell in believers
00:32:21.095 --> 00:32:25.133
And god wants a shift away from a physical building
00:32:25.133 --> 00:32:30.371
To actually have us understand we are his temple.
00:32:31.406 --> 00:32:36.144
And that has always been his plan.
00:32:36.911 --> 00:32:38.312
First, there was a foreshadowing
00:32:38.312 --> 00:32:40.181
In the jewish religious system,
00:32:40.181 --> 00:32:42.383
But he always knew he was gonna fulfill it in jesus christ
00:32:42.383 --> 00:32:46.454
And in his believers here on earth, we're the temple.
00:32:46.454 --> 00:32:49.991
- okay 70 ad is something that a lot of our viewing audience
00:32:49.991 --> 00:32:54.896
Probably heard about, but probably doesn't
00:32:54.896 --> 00:32:56.531
Know a ton about.
00:32:56.531 --> 00:32:58.166
You're making that a significant piece.
00:32:58.166 --> 00:33:01.869
But let's make sure we connect the dots. okay.
00:33:02.837 --> 00:33:06.340
So if somebody's watching and their dad was saved
00:33:06.340 --> 00:33:11.712
Reading the late great planet earth,
00:33:12.513 --> 00:33:15.349
What are we saying to those people?
00:33:16.117 --> 00:33:18.986
Because it feels like the word victorious
00:33:18.986 --> 00:33:24.325
Means that we're not having to play out in reality
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:29.497
The little scenes that we saw written in jack chick tracts
00:33:30.665 --> 00:33:34.969
When we were children, it literally scared the
00:33:35.937 --> 00:33:37.872
(person laughing)
00:33:37.872 --> 00:33:39.107
You know what outta everybody. - yes.
00:33:39.107 --> 00:33:41.042
- because the idea that a man,
00:33:41.042 --> 00:33:45.446
An antichrist was going to take over the world
00:33:45.446 --> 00:33:50.251
In our future.
00:33:50.251 --> 00:33:51.586
- yes. - and and so
00:33:51.586 --> 00:33:54.255
What you're really saying, or what i think you're saying
00:33:54.255 --> 00:33:58.493
Is that there's a way to interpret the bible
00:33:58.493 --> 00:34:01.529
That isn't some newfangled something,
00:34:01.529 --> 00:34:04.465
But it dates back to historical church founding fathers
00:34:04.465 --> 00:34:09.003
That some of what we've,
00:34:09.003 --> 00:34:12.073
John darby has thrown into the future is really in the past.
00:34:12.073 --> 00:34:16.711
- correct. - is that, is that kind of
00:34:16.711 --> 00:34:18.112
What you're saying? - yes.
00:34:18.112 --> 00:34:19.480
- exactly, you mentioned the olivet discourse
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.917
When the disciples said to jesus,
00:34:22.917 --> 00:34:25.086
Look at these amazing buildings, the temple and so on.
00:34:25.086 --> 00:34:29.323
And he said, not one stone will be left here.
00:34:29.323 --> 00:34:31.759
It will all be broken down.
00:34:31.759 --> 00:34:34.028
Then they came, as harold said,
00:34:34.028 --> 00:34:35.396
And they asked him about it over matthew 24 and 25,
00:34:35.396 --> 00:34:40.568
Jesus basically lays out history
00:34:41.202 --> 00:34:44.071
And it's not all about the future,
00:34:44.071 --> 00:34:45.806
But neither is it all about the past.
00:34:45.806 --> 00:34:48.376
He basically says, look, all of this is gonna happen
00:34:48.376 --> 00:34:51.846
Within one generation, which is, as harold said,
00:34:51.846 --> 00:34:55.082
Is usually about 40 years.
00:34:55.082 --> 00:34:56.918
The generation wandered in the wilderness for 40 years
00:34:56.918 --> 00:35:00.221
Until that generation died.
00:35:00.221 --> 00:35:02.056
Right. so he said, all of this will happen
00:35:02.056 --> 00:35:05.026
In one generation.
00:35:05.026 --> 00:35:06.460
The temple being destroyed, a tribulation period,
00:35:06.460 --> 00:35:10.298
Famine, earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars.
00:35:10.298 --> 00:35:14.535
Because remember the romans dominated the area.
00:35:14.535 --> 00:35:17.805
There were no rumors of wars.
00:35:17.805 --> 00:35:20.575
But the roman empire began to break up.
00:35:20.575 --> 00:35:23.344
There began to be rebellions and rumors of wars.
00:35:23.344 --> 00:35:25.746
And jesus said all of that would happen
00:35:25.746 --> 00:35:27.815
Within one generation.
00:35:27.815 --> 00:35:30.151
Then he says, then he tells us three parables.
00:35:31.052 --> 00:35:34.655
The parable of the talents, the parable of the bridesmaids
00:35:34.655 --> 00:35:38.292
Who didn't have enough oil,
00:35:38.292 --> 00:35:39.961
And the parable of the sheep and the goats
00:35:39.961 --> 00:35:42.630
That's telling us what we should be doing right now.
00:35:42.630 --> 00:35:45.299
We should be staying filled up with oil.
00:35:45.299 --> 00:35:47.535
We should be staying filled with the holy spirit,
00:35:47.535 --> 00:35:49.837
Walking with god.
00:35:49.837 --> 00:35:51.472
We should be discovering and using our talents
00:35:51.472 --> 00:35:54.375
To their fullest capacity until the master returns.
00:35:54.375 --> 00:35:57.912
And we should be blessing other people,
00:35:57.912 --> 00:36:00.281
As much as you've done it to the least of these,
00:36:00.281 --> 00:36:02.450
You've done it to me.
00:36:02.450 --> 00:36:04.118
That's the period we live in.
00:36:04.118 --> 00:36:06.420
Now, in the future he says, when the son of man returns
00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:09.724
With all of his angels.
00:36:09.724 --> 00:36:11.659
So we've got something is going to happen
00:36:12.526 --> 00:36:14.629
Within a generation that's the 80/70.
00:36:14.629 --> 00:36:17.932
Something is going to happen in the future.
00:36:18.866 --> 00:36:20.835
Jesus will return, we are not doubting that at all.
00:36:20.835 --> 00:36:25.139
He will return to bring to a culmination
00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:29.076
And a conclusion what he has been doing
00:36:29.076 --> 00:36:32.113
In and through his people for 2000 years
00:36:32.113 --> 00:36:35.149
And however long it is until he returns.
00:36:36.017 --> 00:36:38.519
But in the meantime, we need to be walking with the lord
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:42.423
And be full of the spirit.
00:36:42.423 --> 00:36:44.492
We need to be discovering and putting into full use
00:36:44.492 --> 00:36:47.995
Our god-given talents.
00:36:47.995 --> 00:36:49.964
And we need to be reaching out to the least of these
00:36:49.964 --> 00:36:52.433
Who are hurting and in need.
00:36:52.433 --> 00:36:55.703
That's the job of the body of christ,
00:36:55.703 --> 00:36:57.938
The tribulation behind us, the return of christ ahead of us.
00:36:57.938 --> 00:37:02.209
Kingdom work now in the present.
00:37:02.209 --> 00:37:04.745
- the big event still in the future, jesus is coming back.
00:37:04.745 --> 00:37:08.149
- yeah. - to fully establish
00:37:08.149 --> 00:37:10.151
His kingdom on earth.
00:37:10.151 --> 00:37:11.652
But it's growing until then.
00:37:11.652 --> 00:37:13.688
We need to be busy cooperating with him right now
00:37:13.688 --> 00:37:18.326
To bring his will to earth and it will continue to grow
00:37:18.326 --> 00:37:22.963
And he'll return and obliterate evil.
00:37:22.963 --> 00:37:26.000
- what you are looking for is a building
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:28.836
Continuing to build kingdom until a return of christ.
00:37:28.836 --> 00:37:34.442
- yes. - correct.
00:37:34.909 --> 00:37:36.477
- so you're just taking away one event of a catching away,
00:37:36.477 --> 00:37:41.015
Taking that and deleting that.
00:37:41.649 --> 00:37:45.219
- yes. - and taking what we thought
00:37:45.219 --> 00:37:47.788
And we all grew up with his coming in the future
00:37:47.788 --> 00:37:51.092
And you threw it in the rear view mirror.
00:37:51.092 --> 00:37:52.526
- yes. - so that's why
00:37:52.526 --> 00:37:53.961
You're saying it's victorious 'cause all of that drama
00:37:53.961 --> 00:37:57.832
That jack chick put in his tracts.
00:37:57.832 --> 00:38:00.334
- yes. - that was coming.
00:38:00.334 --> 00:38:03.003
You don't see that coming, you see that as in the past.
00:38:03.003 --> 00:38:06.040
So a number of questions (person laughing)
00:38:06.040 --> 00:38:09.977
Kind of pop up. - a number?
00:38:09.977 --> 00:38:12.046
(all laughing) - sure, there's some
00:38:12.046 --> 00:38:13.280
Really good questions. - the volume of questions
00:38:14.215 --> 00:38:15.082
Pop up. - volumes.
00:38:15.082 --> 00:38:16.317
- you see jesus's words where he says
00:38:16.317 --> 00:38:20.554
In the olivet discourse, matthew 24,
00:38:20.554 --> 00:38:22.456
I don't know what verse. - verse three.
00:38:22.456 --> 00:38:23.991
- verse three that he, until you see me coming in clouds,
00:38:23.991 --> 00:38:28.396
That means you see a fulfillment of that by.
00:38:28.396 --> 00:38:30.931
- him coming in judgment on jerusalem
00:38:31.766 --> 00:38:33.300
With the destruction in 70 ad, is that a fulfilled moment
00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:37.104
In time? - so josephus records,
00:38:37.104 --> 00:38:39.073
And the historian josephus that you've mentioned records
00:38:39.073 --> 00:38:43.878
The roman soldiers, as the city was,
00:38:43.878 --> 00:38:46.847
As they were attacking the city,
00:38:46.847 --> 00:38:49.216
That they saw riders and horses on the clouds in a vision.
00:38:49.216 --> 00:38:54.422
And general titus said, "the hand
00:38:55.122 --> 00:38:57.992
Of an avenging god must be at work here."
00:38:57.992 --> 00:39:00.661
- [matt] mm-hmm.
00:39:00.661 --> 00:39:01.962
- so there's a historical reference
00:39:01.962 --> 00:39:05.232
To something that sounds very, very much
00:39:05.232 --> 00:39:08.536
Like the wording that jesus used
00:39:08.536 --> 00:39:11.205
Happening at this- - 40 years earlier.
00:39:11.205 --> 00:39:12.807
- yes, happening at the same time that jesus said it would.
00:39:12.807 --> 00:39:16.177
So yeah, i believe there was a, we can see the fall
00:39:16.177 --> 00:39:20.915
Of jerusalem as a coming in judgment of the lord.
00:39:20.915 --> 00:39:24.985
I believe that when we die,
00:39:24.985 --> 00:39:28.956
The lord will come and take us to be with him,
00:39:28.956 --> 00:39:31.425
And i believe that one day jesus will return to earth
00:39:31.425 --> 00:39:35.796
For the final consummation of all things.
00:39:35.796 --> 00:39:38.766
The final return of christ, the final judgment,
00:39:38.766 --> 00:39:42.203
The final resurrection,
00:39:42.203 --> 00:39:43.571
All that whole thing has still to take place.
00:39:43.571 --> 00:39:46.373
- i can emphasize the word coming as he did.
00:39:46.373 --> 00:39:50.478
In the greek, it's parousia.
00:39:50.478 --> 00:39:52.913
Most often it's translated from that greek word,
00:39:52.913 --> 00:39:56.517
But that was a common word back in new testament times.
00:39:56.517 --> 00:40:00.454
But we actually have seven different times
00:40:00.454 --> 00:40:03.290
It's used of jesus.
00:40:03.290 --> 00:40:04.258
- [matt] mm-hmm.
00:40:04.258 --> 00:40:05.559
- like when he came to be water baptized.
00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:07.695
- [matt] mm.
00:40:07.695 --> 00:40:08.529
- we have a parousia.
00:40:08.529 --> 00:40:09.830
Jesus comes at the transfiguration,
00:40:09.830 --> 00:40:15.436
It says parousia.
00:40:15.836 --> 00:40:17.605
So we don't want to say
00:40:17.605 --> 00:40:19.907
That word parousia is only a future event,
00:40:19.907 --> 00:40:24.378
Because that's not how the word was understood.
00:40:24.378 --> 00:40:26.814
But people who wanna throw everything
00:40:26.814 --> 00:40:28.616
In the future tend to do that.
00:40:28.616 --> 00:40:31.085
Wherever they see the word coming, they say,
00:40:31.085 --> 00:40:33.654
"oh, that refers to the second coming."
00:40:33.654 --> 00:40:36.490
No, it didn't mean that back in those days.
00:40:36.490 --> 00:40:40.060
So he came and judged jerusalem also.
00:40:40.060 --> 00:40:42.663
- are you both declaring matthew 24 is completely
00:40:42.663 --> 00:40:47.601
In the rear view mirror,
00:40:47.601 --> 00:40:49.203
Or any of matthew 24 is still to come?
00:40:49.203 --> 00:40:53.173
- i think quite, so the tribulation period and the end
00:40:53.173 --> 00:40:57.978
Of the temple, that's obviously in the rear view mirror.
00:40:57.978 --> 00:41:01.615
The temple was destroyed.
00:41:01.615 --> 00:41:02.850
- [matt] yeah.
00:41:02.850 --> 00:41:03.784
- it happened, we can't deny it.
00:41:03.784 --> 00:41:05.686
- i've been there,
00:41:05.686 --> 00:41:06.554
It's not there. - yeah,
00:41:06.554 --> 00:41:07.655
It's not there. (laurie laughing)
00:41:07.655 --> 00:41:08.589
So it starts in the temple.
00:41:08.589 --> 00:41:10.291
Jesus and his disciples leave the temple.
00:41:10.291 --> 00:41:13.027
They go down the kidron valley, they go up the mount
00:41:13.027 --> 00:41:15.062
Of olives, and there, the disciples ask jesus about it,
00:41:15.062 --> 00:41:19.199
And they're basically at eye level with the temple now.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:23.170
So they're looking at the temple
00:41:23.804 --> 00:41:25.539
That jesus is speaking about
00:41:25.539 --> 00:41:27.841
And telling them that this is all gonna be wiped out,
00:41:27.841 --> 00:41:30.611
That this city will be surrounded by armies,
00:41:30.611 --> 00:41:33.514
And so that's all in the past.
00:41:33.514 --> 00:41:36.216
Now the parables is what we are living in,
00:41:37.117 --> 00:41:40.120
Those three parables.
00:41:40.120 --> 00:41:42.423
We are people who are being filled with oil.
00:41:43.357 --> 00:41:45.359
We are people who are using our gifts and talents.
00:41:45.359 --> 00:41:48.362
We are people hopefully who are blessing others
00:41:48.362 --> 00:41:51.231
Who are less fortunate.
00:41:51.231 --> 00:41:53.167
But all those parables end with the master shall return,
00:41:53.167 --> 00:41:56.904
The bride groom shall return,
00:41:56.904 --> 00:41:59.673
And so we are still looking forward.
00:41:59.673 --> 00:42:03.243
The second coming of christ is also
00:42:03.243 --> 00:42:05.145
In the olivet discourse.
00:42:05.145 --> 00:42:06.413
- [matt] okay.
00:42:06.413 --> 00:42:07.548
- we're looking forward to that day.
00:42:07.548 --> 00:42:08.949
- so let's try to land the plane here,
00:42:08.949 --> 00:42:13.053
(laurie chuckles)
00:42:13.053 --> 00:42:14.622
And dr. eberle, you and martin trench,
00:42:14.622 --> 00:42:18.125
You've written a book, "victorious eschatology."
00:42:18.125 --> 00:42:21.028
What you're largely saying is
00:42:21.028 --> 00:42:25.466
That a lot of the dispensational theology
00:42:25.466 --> 00:42:30.704
That we have been assuming was in our future,
00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:34.375
Is in our past, and that the entire idea of that,
00:42:34.375 --> 00:42:40.514
That formed again, the most famous book about it,
00:42:41.515 --> 00:42:45.719
"late great planet earth," was really 1800s,
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:50.324
Mid-1800s and forward,
00:42:50.824 --> 00:42:53.894
But church history has never had a catching away
00:42:53.894 --> 00:42:57.698
Separate from a second coming.
00:42:57.698 --> 00:42:59.400
That's never happened till then.
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:01.669
We're deleting that in this discussion,
00:43:01.669 --> 00:43:06.306
And that there is a second coming,
00:43:06.306 --> 00:43:09.043
But there is not this catching away, okay?
00:43:09.043 --> 00:43:14.448
And that the great tribulation was referring
00:43:15.315 --> 00:43:18.018
To the destruction of the temple in 70 ad,
00:43:18.018 --> 00:43:22.089
Is that largely what we're talking about?
00:43:22.089 --> 00:43:25.826
- yes.
00:43:25.826 --> 00:43:26.794
- okay. - that's perfect.
00:43:26.794 --> 00:43:27.728
- okay, so that's a summary.
00:43:27.728 --> 00:43:29.396
- yes, that's a great summary.
00:43:29.396 --> 00:43:30.664
- fix it if i screwed anything up.
00:43:30.664 --> 00:43:32.633
- so just one thing, the catching away,
00:43:32.633 --> 00:43:37.237
That word isn't in scripture anywhere.
00:43:37.237 --> 00:43:40.774
The word rapture is where we are talking about.
00:43:40.774 --> 00:43:44.978
It was actually from the latin translation of the bible,
00:43:44.978 --> 00:43:48.382
A latin word raptura.
00:43:48.382 --> 00:43:50.451
It didn't come from the greek bible,
00:43:50.451 --> 00:43:52.252
Didn't come from the hebrew bible,
00:43:52.252 --> 00:43:54.088
But that's where it originated.
00:43:54.088 --> 00:43:56.256
Originally, the greek word says catching up.
00:43:56.256 --> 00:43:59.226
- [matt] mm-hmm.
00:43:59.226 --> 00:44:00.327
- doesn't catching away.
00:44:00.327 --> 00:44:02.062
That's actually a mistranslation, and
00:44:02.062 --> 00:44:04.264
There's a difference.
00:44:04.264 --> 00:44:05.199
Catching away implies that you're lifted
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:07.267
And then taken away,
00:44:07.267 --> 00:44:09.002
But catching up is a different, there is a possibility
00:44:09.002 --> 00:44:13.006
That when jesus returns,
00:44:13.006 --> 00:44:15.909
We will be so enthralled and captured by him,
00:44:15.909 --> 00:44:21.248
Boom, that literally we'll be welcomed into his presence,
00:44:22.416 --> 00:44:27.688
And he will eliminate all remaining evil
00:44:28.555 --> 00:44:31.925
As we are enraptured in him,
00:44:32.526 --> 00:44:35.896
But it's not a catching away
00:44:35.896 --> 00:44:37.097
To go to heaven for seven years.
00:44:37.097 --> 00:44:39.032
Literally, jesus is coming back,
00:44:39.032 --> 00:44:42.002
And we can be captured in the presence.
00:44:42.002 --> 00:44:46.273
It's a coming, it's an appearance.
00:44:46.273 --> 00:44:48.609
Jesus christ in the clouds, it's real.
00:44:48.609 --> 00:44:51.745
So i don't wanna get rid of the significance
00:44:51.745 --> 00:44:54.348
Of us being totally,
00:44:54.348 --> 00:44:57.084
Completely captivated at his appearing.
00:44:57.084 --> 00:45:00.420
- absolutely. - yeah.
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:01.555
- i don't wanna use the word rapture
00:45:01.555 --> 00:45:03.123
Because it didn't come from the bible,
00:45:03.123 --> 00:45:04.958
But there's a lot of people listening
00:45:04.958 --> 00:45:07.261
Who are really afraid to give up that word.
00:45:07.261 --> 00:45:09.496
- [matt] mm. - [laurie] yeah.
00:45:09.496 --> 00:45:10.798
- and i'm okay as long as they're thinking,
00:45:10.798 --> 00:45:12.366
"all we really know for sure is that when he comes back,
00:45:12.366 --> 00:45:15.469
We will be enraptured by him."
00:45:15.469 --> 00:45:17.337
- mm-hmm.
00:45:17.337 --> 00:45:18.806
If there is a rapture and there is a second coming,
00:45:18.806 --> 00:45:22.276
If you're post-trib,
00:45:22.276 --> 00:45:23.710
It's really the same event. - it's the same event.
00:45:23.710 --> 00:45:24.778
- yes. - and you know, matt,
00:45:24.778 --> 00:45:27.281
You said earlier on, so we're deleting this and we're,
00:45:27.281 --> 00:45:30.684
I actually don't think we're deleting anything.
00:45:30.684 --> 00:45:33.353
- [matt] really? - i think
00:45:33.353 --> 00:45:34.888
We are simply trying to reorganize things
00:45:34.888 --> 00:45:38.392
Into a more chronological order.
00:45:38.392 --> 00:45:42.029
So for instance, we're not deleting the tribulation.
00:45:42.029 --> 00:45:44.298
We're saying, "let's move it to the place
00:45:44.298 --> 00:45:46.533
Where jesus said it would happen."
00:45:46.533 --> 00:45:47.968
- [matt] got it. - we're not taking it out,
00:45:47.968 --> 00:45:49.536
And as far as being caught up, being raptured
00:45:49.536 --> 00:45:53.207
Or caught up, not caught away, as harold said,
00:45:53.207 --> 00:45:55.475
But caught up with the lord,
00:45:55.475 --> 00:45:57.511
I'm not deleting that either.
00:45:58.145 --> 00:45:59.847
I'm putting that back where it belongs
00:46:00.681 --> 00:46:02.349
With the return of christ,
00:46:02.349 --> 00:46:04.151
Not separate from the return of christ.
00:46:04.151 --> 00:46:06.053
- i see. - mm-hmm.
00:46:06.053 --> 00:46:06.854
- but as part.
00:46:06.854 --> 00:46:08.322
Harold mentioned the word parousia, meaning coming,
00:46:08.322 --> 00:46:10.257
And he mentioned what roman officials did.
00:46:10.257 --> 00:46:13.093
If we lived in a roman empire
00:46:13.093 --> 00:46:14.728
And caesar was coming to this city to visit,
00:46:14.728 --> 00:46:18.365
As the citizens, we would all go out into the highway
00:46:18.365 --> 00:46:21.902
And meet him before he got here,
00:46:21.902 --> 00:46:24.371
And then we'd accompany him back.
00:46:24.371 --> 00:46:26.573
- [matt] mm.
00:46:26.573 --> 00:46:28.075
- and so any idea of being caught up when the lord returns.
00:46:28.075 --> 00:46:31.478
- is us meeting our coming king
00:46:32.112 --> 00:46:34.114
And accompanying him on the way back.
00:46:34.114 --> 00:46:37.484
So, it's not that we're deleting this catching away,
00:46:37.484 --> 00:46:40.754
Or rapture if people want to call it that,
00:46:40.754 --> 00:46:43.290
I think we're putting it back in its proper place,
00:46:43.290 --> 00:46:45.659
Which is the return of christ.
00:46:45.659 --> 00:46:47.928
We're not deleting the idea of an antichrist,
00:46:48.862 --> 00:46:51.231
We're just saying,
00:46:51.231 --> 00:46:52.532
"what does the bible actually say about it?
00:46:52.532 --> 00:46:54.001
And when did this person appear," you know?
00:46:54.001 --> 00:46:57.504
And so, rather than taking anything away from people,
00:46:57.504 --> 00:47:02.843
I would tell a story in the book that i shared with harold,
00:47:03.977 --> 00:47:06.880
That when i was teaching one day on the end times,
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:11.652
A woman got really upset and she said,
00:47:11.652 --> 00:47:14.154
"don't take my antichrist away from me."
00:47:14.154 --> 00:47:16.390
(laurie chuckling)
00:47:16.390 --> 00:47:17.858
Now, if she said, "don't take my savior away from me,"
00:47:17.858 --> 00:47:20.961
I could have sympathized,
00:47:20.961 --> 00:47:22.663
But don't take my antichrist away from me.
00:47:22.663 --> 00:47:25.699
And so, like, if anybody feels like that,
00:47:25.699 --> 00:47:29.069
We are not taking anything away from anybody,
00:47:29.069 --> 00:47:31.505
We are certainly not taking anything away
00:47:31.505 --> 00:47:33.073
From the word of god.
00:47:33.073 --> 00:47:34.441
We are saying, let's understand this
00:47:35.242 --> 00:47:37.878
In the context that it was given
00:47:37.878 --> 00:47:40.681
And in the chronological order that jesus
00:47:40.681 --> 00:47:43.517
And the apostles seem to suggest.
00:47:43.517 --> 00:47:46.053
- well, it never has made sense to me
00:47:46.053 --> 00:47:48.255
That you were going to go away for seven years
00:47:48.255 --> 00:47:49.790
And then come back.
00:47:49.790 --> 00:47:50.657
- yeah. - yes.
00:47:50.657 --> 00:47:52.025
- there is so much,
00:47:52.025 --> 00:47:53.327
And you answer so much of this in the book.
00:47:53.327 --> 00:47:57.164
You have to get the book.
00:47:57.164 --> 00:47:58.432
I'm not just selling the book,
00:47:58.432 --> 00:48:00.000
I love this book because it frees you
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:03.470
And you just start thinking differently.
00:48:03.470 --> 00:48:05.672
- yeah, me too.
00:48:05.672 --> 00:48:06.606
- you know, god is a loving god.
00:48:06.606 --> 00:48:09.710
He loves us so much.
00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:12.012
He's not here to pour out his wrath on us.
00:48:12.012 --> 00:48:15.315
He's not here, you know,
00:48:15.315 --> 00:48:16.616
You think about in this world you will have
00:48:16.616 --> 00:48:19.653
Trials and tribulations.
00:48:19.653 --> 00:48:21.021
You will have them.
00:48:21.021 --> 00:48:22.389
But i have overcome them.
00:48:22.389 --> 00:48:23.924
So there's victory no matter where you look, you know?
00:48:23.924 --> 00:48:27.694
And when you start breaking down the whole nero thing
00:48:27.694 --> 00:48:31.164
And the 666 and all that, then there's the isle of patmos.
00:48:31.164 --> 00:48:35.502
- yes. - yes.
00:48:35.502 --> 00:48:36.903
- you know, in john writing the book of revelations
00:48:36.903 --> 00:48:38.638
And what he saw.
00:48:38.638 --> 00:48:40.207
And all that. and it's all broken down here.
00:48:40.207 --> 00:48:42.776
And i love it because i'm a very, i want the good news.
00:48:42.776 --> 00:48:47.981
It's good news.
00:48:48.382 --> 00:48:49.950
The gospel from the beginning was good news to all people.
00:48:49.950 --> 00:48:53.053
And so i've always yearned for the good news
00:48:53.053 --> 00:48:56.690
Instead of just, we're all dying, we're all going to hide,
00:48:56.690 --> 00:48:59.926
We're all going to, and so, i'm always going, well,
00:48:59.926 --> 00:49:02.195
If jesus did it, then he either did or he didn't.
00:49:02.195 --> 00:49:06.833
Either evil is going to overtake us
00:49:06.833 --> 00:49:09.836
Or he has all power, you know?
00:49:09.836 --> 00:49:11.471
So there's just this black and white to me
00:49:11.471 --> 00:49:14.107
As far as the gospel is.
00:49:14.107 --> 00:49:16.143
And this is so beautiful.
00:49:16.143 --> 00:49:18.111
And so, i know there are a million questions,
00:49:18.111 --> 00:49:22.883
But it's something that you just have to
00:49:22.883 --> 00:49:26.253
Let him that has ears, let him hear.
00:49:27.054 --> 00:49:29.756
And eyes to see.
00:49:29.756 --> 00:49:31.391
- it feels like when i learned,
00:49:31.391 --> 00:49:33.427
It feels like i learned something
00:49:33.427 --> 00:49:35.028
That most views on eschatology,
00:49:35.028 --> 00:49:38.899
And really eschatology, study of the future
00:49:38.899 --> 00:49:41.868
Or study of the end.
00:49:41.868 --> 00:49:43.570
And most of them are saying something like,
00:49:43.570 --> 00:49:47.641
The book of revelation and a lot of the olivet discourse
00:49:47.641 --> 00:49:50.677
Is either in the future or it's in the past.
00:49:50.677 --> 00:49:53.380
And you get there by when do you take something literally
00:49:53.380 --> 00:49:56.483
Or when do you take it figuratively,
00:49:56.483 --> 00:49:58.985
Or when is there an apocalyptic language
00:49:58.985 --> 00:50:02.122
That was written in the old testament,
00:50:02.122 --> 00:50:04.758
That sometimes gets quoted even in the new testament, okay?
00:50:04.758 --> 00:50:09.396
And you're really, the way that you interpret,
00:50:09.396 --> 00:50:13.767
Literal, figurative, or apocalyptic language,
00:50:13.767 --> 00:50:19.106
Determines where the book of revelation goes, future.
00:50:20.207 --> 00:50:23.210
And then, we're finding that, wait a second,
00:50:23.210 --> 00:50:26.646
Shouldn't the book of revelation even refer to us
00:50:26.646 --> 00:50:30.317
And even be a part of our lives today?
00:50:30.317 --> 00:50:32.152
And of course, it should. of course, it should.
00:50:32.152 --> 00:50:35.255
So, there's just this really interesting thing
00:50:35.255 --> 00:50:39.292
That you start questioning this stopwatch mentality,
00:50:39.292 --> 00:50:46.266
That 1948, click, a stopwatch started,
00:50:47.100 --> 00:50:52.439
And that, basically, ad 30 to ad 70 is what you're calling
00:50:53.607 --> 00:50:57.844
If there was a stopwatch going for that generation.
00:50:58.879 --> 00:51:02.182
And it feels like, wouldn't that be an interesting time
00:51:02.182 --> 00:51:07.521
That when the place or the dwelling place of god was gone
00:51:08.655 --> 00:51:11.791
And gone probably forever, it then put the emphasis on,
00:51:11.791 --> 00:51:17.130
Aren't we the living stones of the temple?
00:51:18.031 --> 00:51:22.035
It largely makes a lot of sense.
00:51:22.669 --> 00:51:25.172
One of the things that you guys talked about in the book,
00:51:25.172 --> 00:51:30.510
And i want you just kind of in your closing,
00:51:31.378 --> 00:51:33.046
If you could start explaining this.
00:51:33.046 --> 00:51:35.315
There was in the book of daniel,
00:51:35.315 --> 00:51:38.351
A dream by nebuchadnezzar.
00:51:38.351 --> 00:51:41.821
It was interpreted by daniel,
00:51:41.821 --> 00:51:43.723
And the head of gold and silver and bronze.
00:51:43.723 --> 00:51:47.160
And it gets all the way down to iron and clay at the feet.
00:51:47.160 --> 00:51:50.797
Then what happens?
00:51:50.797 --> 00:51:52.199
And doesn't that refer to christ and his kingdom,
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:57.537
Is that how you're interpreting that?
00:51:58.338 --> 00:51:59.639
If so, start there.
00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:01.241
- exactly. that is one of the visions,
00:52:01.241 --> 00:52:05.045
Or in this case a dream,
00:52:05.045 --> 00:52:06.680
That gives us the chronological order of things.
00:52:06.680 --> 00:52:10.417
So,
00:52:10.417 --> 00:52:11.851
The head of gold,
00:52:12.252 --> 00:52:13.720
The arms and chest of silver,
00:52:13.720 --> 00:52:16.890
The waist of bronze,
00:52:16.890 --> 00:52:19.526
The legs of iron, which then mix with clay down at the feet.
00:52:19.526 --> 00:52:24.764
So we see the babylonian empire
00:52:25.398 --> 00:52:27.200
Because we're given interpretation by daniel.
00:52:27.200 --> 00:52:29.536
The babylonian empire, the middle persian empire,
00:52:29.536 --> 00:52:33.306
Which, of course, had two arms.
00:52:33.306 --> 00:52:35.275
There was two arms to the empire.
00:52:35.275 --> 00:52:36.810
It joined together and became the middle persian empire.
00:52:36.810 --> 00:52:39.846
There was the greek empire under alexander the great.
00:52:39.846 --> 00:52:43.450
The two legs being the roman empire,
00:52:43.450 --> 00:52:46.519
Which did have two halves,
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:47.787
The eastern and the western empire.
00:52:47.787 --> 00:52:50.056
And the roman empire was the first attempt
00:52:50.957 --> 00:52:53.927
At multiculturalism,
00:52:53.927 --> 00:52:55.895
Of having a government over a mixed group of people.
00:52:56.963 --> 00:53:00.734
Different nationalities, different ethnicities,
00:53:00.734 --> 00:53:04.137
Different languages, different religions.
00:53:04.137 --> 00:53:07.474
But they don't mix, like clay and iron don't mix.
00:53:08.408 --> 00:53:12.245
And of course, rome had 10 main caesars
00:53:13.113 --> 00:53:17.851
And it also had 10 administrative districts.
00:53:17.851 --> 00:53:21.087
The 10 toes of.
00:53:21.087 --> 00:53:22.522
So in this society, governed over by caesars,
00:53:23.423 --> 00:53:28.461
Governed over in 10 districts,
00:53:29.095 --> 00:53:30.664
The society that won't mix together,
00:53:30.664 --> 00:53:33.500
Daniel says, "in the days of those kings," the caesars,
00:53:33.500 --> 00:53:38.505
"in the days of those kings,
00:53:38.505 --> 00:53:40.874
The lord will set up a kingdom
00:53:40.874 --> 00:53:43.376
That will never be destroyed."
00:53:43.376 --> 00:53:45.512
And we see the little stone coming
00:53:45.512 --> 00:53:47.280
And hitting the statue at the feet, and it fell over.
00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:51.117
And you know, what i'm sharing here,
00:53:51.918 --> 00:53:53.420
Even many of the dispensation list would agree,
00:53:53.420 --> 00:53:56.890
I've actually heard dr. hilton sutton talk about this,
00:53:56.890 --> 00:54:01.528
About, as the statue falls over
00:54:01.528 --> 00:54:04.964
And it crumbles into dust in the dream of,
00:54:04.964 --> 00:54:07.901
A wind comes and blows it away.
00:54:07.901 --> 00:54:09.602
I hear hilton sutton saying,
00:54:09.602 --> 00:54:11.071
"in on the day of pentecost,
00:54:11.071 --> 00:54:13.039
The holy spirit, the wind of the spirit came
00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:15.108
To blow the kingdoms of man away.
00:54:15.108 --> 00:54:17.944
And the kingdom of god starts as a small pebble
00:54:17.944 --> 00:54:21.014
And it grows and grows until it becomes a mountain
00:54:21.014 --> 00:54:25.618
That has filled the whole earth."
00:54:25.618 --> 00:54:28.655
That should be our hope.
00:54:28.655 --> 00:54:30.757
We shouldn't be looking for doom and gloom in the future.
00:54:30.757 --> 00:54:33.460
There will always be doom and gloom.
00:54:33.460 --> 00:54:35.395
There will always be tares growing among the wheat,
00:54:35.395 --> 00:54:38.698
And things like that.
00:54:38.698 --> 00:54:40.266
But we should be looking for a kingdom that will never end,
00:54:40.266 --> 00:54:43.870
That will grow until it fills the whole earth.
00:54:43.870 --> 00:54:48.708
- final thought.
00:54:49.075 --> 00:54:50.744
- that was perfect.
00:54:50.744 --> 00:54:51.644
(matt and laurie laughing)
00:54:51.644 --> 00:54:53.580
He said it exactly.
00:54:53.580 --> 00:54:56.015
Dr. harold eberle, dr. martin trench.
00:54:56.015 --> 00:54:58.818
Wow. lot to think about. lot to chew on.
00:54:58.818 --> 00:55:02.789
What we're really trying to accomplish, i guess,
00:55:02.789 --> 00:55:05.358
What you're writing in this book
00:55:05.358 --> 00:55:07.427
Is the word victorious and the word the end
00:55:07.427 --> 00:55:11.398
Or eschatology in the same sentence
00:55:11.398 --> 00:55:14.200
Is the way we should be living our life.
00:55:14.200 --> 00:55:16.870
And if we get somebody inspired
00:55:16.870 --> 00:55:20.340
To live their life generationally,
00:55:20.340 --> 00:55:23.943
To build businesses, and have influence,
00:55:23.943 --> 00:55:26.780
And grow and have children
00:55:26.780 --> 00:55:28.314
And grandchildren and grand-grandchildren,
00:55:28.314 --> 00:55:30.950
And all the, you know, it just feels like,
00:55:30.950 --> 00:55:35.321
You know, laurie and i,
00:55:35.321 --> 00:55:36.656
And we're all roughly the same age,
00:55:36.656 --> 00:55:39.692
Lived our lives, short periods of time,
00:55:39.692 --> 00:55:42.462
You know, year by year, virtually.
00:55:42.462 --> 00:55:45.465
And it's time for us to embrace a glorious
00:55:45.465 --> 00:55:49.402
And a victorious eschatology.
00:55:49.402 --> 00:55:51.905
Thank you for taking the arrows for us.
00:55:51.905 --> 00:55:54.274
If there's people, you know, write them,
00:55:54.274 --> 00:55:56.543
I didn't say anything, you know?
00:55:56.543 --> 00:55:57.444
You know, it's their book,
00:55:57.444 --> 00:55:59.879
All we're doing is interviewing them, so. (chuckles)
00:55:59.879 --> 00:56:03.016
- [laurie] thanks for coming.
00:56:03.016 --> 00:56:03.850
- thanks for having us.
00:56:03.850 --> 00:56:05.084
- thanks for being here. god bless you.
00:56:05.084 --> 00:56:06.486
We'll see you next time.
00:56:06.486 --> 00:56:07.554
(inspiring music)
00:56:07.554 --> 00:56:07.554

Harold Eberle & Martin Trench: Exploring Biblical Prophecy | Praise

March 24, 2025 | S25:E325

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